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Audio and transcript from the March 31th, 2022 installment of “Conversations with the Coop” with Amit Gajjala - Founder at Stader Labs.
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Crypto Texan: Okay. So all right. Hello everyone, welcome to Conversations with the Coop. This is where we source questions from the Index Coop community to gain insights from today's leaders in Crypto and DeFi. I'm your host Crypto Texan, and today we have Amit Gajjala, who's the founder of Stader Labs, and Stader Labs' goals is to bring the next billion into the staking ecosystem. Amit, I appreciate you being here with us today. How's everything going?
Amit Gajjala: Thanks a lot Texan. Firstly it's an honor to be here. So far it's been great. So quickly introducing myself, if that's okay.
Crypto Texan: Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I would love to get your background and just how did you get into the crypto space?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, absolutely. So as you know, it's pretty apparent from the title, my name is Amit, and I've hailed from India, currently living in Bangalore. So it's a very interesting story how I got into crypto. So I am not a degen or I have not been in the space for a long time. But yeah, if you actually think about two years, it is a long time in crypto, but not as much as 10 years or five years. So let me quickly give a background about myself and then I will get into how I stumbled upon this space. So I am a management grad by academics, and I'm an engineer before I'm a management grad. Spent about 10-plus years working across strategy consulting firms in top startups in India.
And it was in about 2020 when I was very keen to start something up. And I was talking to one of my current partners and CTO, Sidhart. He and I go way back to our undergrad days. He's been a veteran in crypto. He's been in this space for more than seven, eight years now, he used to run his on mining farms and mining pool optimizers. So he inspired me to actually pay attention to this space and start investing and learning about the space towards the middle of 2020. That's how I got into this space. And ever since I've been just enamored by the amount of innovation that is happening in this space, and also the type of applications and infrastructure that is getting built in this space.
And it's about early 2021, is when we had about 20 ideas that we wanted to start in the crypto space. And those 20 ideas led us to look at one of the biggest possible market opportunity and underserved opportunity which is staking. We started looking at the space very seriously, decided that there are several trends that are very apparent to us. And it was very, very early stage back in 2021, and that showed us in this direction of starting Stader, where one of the dreams I had was enabling passive income opportunities/ Riskless passive income opportunities for more than 30% of the world population. As today, most of these people living in rural areas in Asia, India, and several other parts of the world lack safe access to good financial products, and that's where that vision of bringing onboard a billion users to staking took shape. And then we decided to build this staking infrastructure that powers this ambition of bringing a billion users onboard.
Crypto Texan: Yeah. So you obviously saw enough innovation in the crypto space that I guess gave you enough conviction to go into full time. But what was it exactly that gave you that conviction, that made you say, "I'm going to be an entrepreneur in this space."?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah. So I think I would say three major things that drove my conviction in this space. The first thing is the kind of innovation that is happening in this space as a result of the entire crypto space being open sourced and transparent. The second one was obviously the market opportunity is so huge that it's global from day one. There are no geographical boundaries. And the third one is the associated value that is inherent within the protocol. I just had a momentary realization that, "Wow, this is internet space signs on steroids."
Crypto Texan: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree with your sentiments there. So you and your co-founder decided that there are... It's interesting you say that because there are no geographical boundaries to the crypto space. But there can be I guess technical barriers to entry or technical personal limitations for individuals to get involved in the space. Is that what drove you to start Stader Labs? Well I guess it might even be a better idea to take a step back. So Stader Labs assists users with the difficult technical aspects of staking. So I think it might be a good idea. Can you just describe in your own words what is staking and why is staking necessary for the security of blockchain networks?
Amit Gajjala: Absolutely. So I think you had two levels of questions. One is how does Stader Labs help people effortlessly stake? And then taking a step back you said you wanted to also understand what is staking and why is it important for the ecosystem. That's-
Crypto Texan: Yeah. Sorry. I just feel like laying the ground level for just what is staking, why is it necessary for the blockchain networks, and then we can go into the technical aspects of that afterwards.
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, absolutely. So staking is for proof-of-stake networks what proof-of-work is for Bitcoin network. Right? So in the case of Bitcoin network, the consensus mechanism was solved by the miners. Solving a difficult mathematical problem by miners. So the innovation that proof-of-stake networks have built on top of proof-of-work was there is no need to solve a difficult mathematical problem. Instead, use the native tokens as a security mechanism, which is termed as staking in terminology. So for a validator or a node operator to participate in the propagation of network or block production, they need to stake the native tokens, like in case of Terra (LUNA), Solana (SOL). And they will be able to one, participate in block production, two also work with somebody who has added a block to the blockchain. So that's essentially proof-of-stake mechanism and staking.
Crypto Texan: Right. And then in the proof-of-work consensus mechanism, like you said, these computers are solving very, very complex math problems. And the first computer or node who solves that problem gets to propose the next block of transactions and they also receive the block reward. Right? So conversely on the proof-of-stake side, are proof of stake validator nodes solving complex math problems? And how do those networks determine who proposes the next block and who receives the block reward?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So in proof-of-stake network, the nodes are actually not solving difficult math problems, like in case of a proof-of-work network. They're actually staking capital. In simple words they're actually taking capital and the probability of each of the node getting an opportunity to add a block is proportional to the amount of tokens that they have staked. Obviously there are several improvements over it like proof-of-history or randomized proof-of-stake for individual epochs et cetera. But at the heart of it, this is how proof-of-stake networks are currently solving for block production.
Crypto Texan: Right. So they're similar in the sense that I guess you do have to put up a lot of capital on a proof-of-work consensus blockchain, because you have to purchase a lot of equipment and it costs a lot of energy and electricity to run those nodes to solve the math problems to receive the reward for the next block and to propose the next block. So similarly on the proof-of-stake side, it is capital intensive, but I guess it feels like that there can be less barriers to entry, especially when you have an organization like Stader Labs who's here to assist with the staking. So let's talk about Stader Labs then. How does Stader Labs help I guess retail users, institutions, and other individuals in the crypto space with staking?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah. Absolutely. So essentially let's take an average crypto token holder. How can he maximize his rewards obviously in a risk consistent manner. He can go and participate in any of the yield farming opportunities, or he can actually participate in staking. In order to stake, what does he have to do? He needs to go discover the right set of node operators and stake with those. Process the data around the performance of each of these node operators and obviously select the node and stake his capital. So we simplify that entire process by curating these nodes. When I say nodes, what I mean is validators. By curating these validators. And at the same time we also create buckets of these validators so that the risks associated with slashing, which is the main risk when you stake your assets on a proof-of-stake blockchain, the risks associated with slashing are minimized. Now coming to... Sorry. Did you want to interrupt?
Crypto Texan: No, no, no. No. You go ahead. That's fine.
Amit Gajjala: Got you. You also talked about how are we going to add value to institutions and enterprises in the future? So when it comes to institutions and enterprises, obviously majority of these institutions don't have access to any kind of staking solutions. So it has to be individual validator driven business development effort that goes into these institutions. Now we want to create an API type of a layer that connects all of these institutions and gives them access to all types of staking solutions that we are building for institutions. For example take an exchange like Coin Switch or Coin DCX in India. They don't have access to any type of staking across proof-of-stake networks. Now how can they offer these solutions? They can go partner with individual validator, or they can partner with a smart contract platform like Stader which is an aggregation staking across the proof-of-stake networks, and also gives value added solutions yield farming strategies on top of staking rewards or gives access to liquid staking solutions as well. So that's the whole idea, or that's the whole ecosystem of staking solutions that we are trying to build.
Crypto Texan: Okay. So who is your target market for the staking solutions? Is it individuals who are new to crypto? Is it degens or are you focused more on the institution or Dows I guess too.
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So in the short term we are primarily focused on the retail segment. These are the crypto retail segment, which is the degens and people who are reasonably familiar with, interact with crypto, and they already interact several DeFi protocols. So our target segment is that right now. And as we build more and more staking solutions across the blockchains, then we will actually target, the go-to market strategy will be for institutions and exchanges.
Crypto Texan: I guess which blockchains are you currently providing staking services for right now?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So right now we are only present on Terra blockchain. We have launched our first product on Terra about three months ago. Have about 900 million of assets staked with us. And beyond that, currently we are expanding to four more blockchains, the likes of Polygon, Phantom, Solana, Hedera. In about four weeks time we would be present across all of these blockchains.
Crypto Texan: Yeah. And when I was looking at your website, I noticed you had Terra that was up and running. And then on the coming soon side had Near, Hedera, Ethereum, Cosmos, Solana. You said Polygon. I don't remember seeing that on there. But what about just thinking of some more popular proof-of-stake blockchains like Polkadot and Avalanche? Are those somewhere on roadmap or is there a specific reason why you're not focusing on those two specifically right now?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, so our goal is to be present across at least the top 10 blockchains in about six to nine months from now. What I mentioned is just about a month to two from now.
Crypto Texan: Okay. And how do you measure the top 10 blockchains? Is that by market cap or is that by activity on the blockchain? How do you measure that metric?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, it's a combination of three factors. The first two are the factors that are measurable currently. The third one is a potential that we see on each of the blockchains. So obviously the first two factors are the market cap or the value locked on the blockchain. Second one is the maturity of the DeFi ecosystem in terms of presence of several types of protocols like lending markets, dexes, options, and complex financial products like the yield farming worlds, et cetera. The third one is our view of how big each of these blockchains could be in the future. So these are the three factors apart from presence of existing players or partners that we can leverage. So these are the main factors that we have utilized to select the immediate entry blockchains.
Crypto Texan: Okay. And what are your thoughts about just the differences between proof-of-work and proof-of-stake, just in your general opinion. Which one do you feel is more secure than the other? Which one do you feel more is more decentralized and is more democratic to the process? I just wanted to get your opinions on that just in general.
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So it's basically actually going to a decentralized world, right? So obviously the higher the dispersion of capital across the node operators and higher the number of node operators, it is better for the entire ecosystem. From a security point of view also, and also from a decentralized view. So having said that, there are several blockchains that I definitely feel secure because I'm personally involved in those blockchains. And at the same time there are several blockchains that have taken adequate measures to decentralize their networks more and more like for example Terra, Solana, Avalanche and even Polygon to a certain extent. They're taking a lot of steps because I speak to the foundations in terms of decentralizing their blockchains a lot more than what they are currently.
Crypto Texan: And what about on Stader's state of decentralization? How does the organizational structure of Stader Labs look? Are you a corporation? Are you an LLC? Is it a Dow, just a protocol. How would you describe Stader Labs from an organizational and decentralization standpoint?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So far as a centralized team, we just launched our token a couple of weeks ago. And the idea is to progressively decentralize by adding governance to the protocol. Right now it's just a protocol.
Crypto Texan: Okay. And where is that protocol house? I know you're active on the Terra blockchain, but I guess how does the mechanics of that work? So the token that you have is an ERC-20 token on Ethereum or is it on the Terra blockchain. So I guess where is the protocol's headquarters I guess is a way to put it. Is it on Ethereum and how does that work with staking on multiple blockchains as well?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So it's obviously a very complex architecture that we are embarking on. If you ask us where is our headquarters, I will say we are a protocol that started in Terra and obviously a Terra native protocol. For the ease of exchange listing and multi chain staking, we have created our token as an EFC-20 token. Obviously the wrapped version of our token is also available.
Crypto Texan: I'm sorry, could you repeat that last part? I missed it.
Amit Gajjala: What I meant was our SD token is an ERC-20 token, and the wrapped version of SD token, which is WHSD is available on Terra.
Crypto Texan: Okay. So what role does the SD token play in the Stader ecosystem right now and what I guess more specific future implementations and responsibilities do you see for SD token holders?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, I think SD token is going to be a critical token for our Stader ecosystem. There are four major utilities. The first one is obviously for the purpose of staking and governance. Right now this is the only feature that is available where SD token holders can A, state the tokens and get a portion of the protocol revenues as staking rewards. And in V2, what we are also planning to implement is a curve style tokenomics where XSD can be locked and VXSD holders can redirect the protocol fees across different blockchains, and also potentially decide the emissions for each of the blockchains. This is coming in the V2 of our tokenomics, which will be in a couple of weeks to a month.
Crypto Texan: Okay, that sounds really exciting.
Amit Gajjala: Beyond this. Sorry, go ahead.
Crypto Texan: Oh, I was just asking, how does Stader generate revenue for the protocol?
Amit Gajjala: Sure. So we actually charge a percentage of staking rewards as our fees. So we are already today making about 3 million of protocol fees within two or three months of launch.
Crypto Texan: That sounds pretty good Amit.
Amit Gajjala: Should I continue?
Crypto Texan: Oh yeah, sure. Go. Yeah, go. Sure.
Amit Gajjala: Yeah. So there are three more utilities for the Stader tokens. The second one is basically the validators in our stake pools and liquids staking pools. They will have to staked SD tokens to get preferential delegations for themselves. And the staked SD tokens will be used as potential insurance against any slashing events. That's a second utility. The third one is a more common utility, where SD tokens can be used to provide liquidity across taxes.
Crypto Texan: Okay, interesting. So you bring up a good point, which is you mentioned slashing. I guess what are the risks of staking? What risks can a retail user, what should they be aware of before they get involved in staking for a blockchain?
Amit Gajjala: So obviously slashing is one of the most important risk that can have a significant impact on the staked tokens. Beyond that one should be aware of the key metrics that determine the rewards generated by validators. Some of these key metrics in blockchains like Terra or up-time Oracle comets, and these key metrics vary across different blockchains. These are obviously the network metrics. There are also financial metrics like commissions, max change in commissions, et cetera, that have to also be kept in mind.
Crypto Texan: And how does data address those risks?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, so we actually on whichever blockchains we expand to, we build a solution called know your validator, that tracks the performance of each of these validators and we constantly rebalance the validators based on the performance.
Crypto Texan: Okay. And how would you compare... I feel this staking sub-sector of the crypto industry is becoming more and more competitive, right? So we've got Stader Labs, Lido, we've got Rocket Pool and even centralized exchanges allow for staking. I think Coinbase, Gemini Binance. How would you say that Stader Labs differentiates itself from the competitors? Both decentralized and centralized competitors.
Amit Gajjala: Got you. So I think on the retail side, we are going to be present across multiple blockchains, and we are not... The decentralized players that you referred to are primarily liquid staking solutions. We are not limiting ourselves to liquid staking, we are addressing the whole pie of staking market. How we have addressed on Terra. We have three different solutions on Terra. One is enhanced staking pools, liquid staking, and also individual validators taking smart contracts. So we are building this core in infrastructure for staking modular smart contract infrastructure for staking. That can be customized for any consumer segment. For example our contracts can be applied on any kind of a centralized exchange where they can do a bunch of automations with the rewards. Automations include yield directions strategies with the rewards, or they can use the staking contract and issue liquids taking tokens on their own validators.
So this is the modularity that is interwoven into the Stader smart contract architecture. That is the main differentiation that we have. And beyond the retail segment, we are actively going to target institutions with our aggregated staking solutions that nobody seem to be targeting right now. The centralized exchanges that you mentioned, very few of them offer such deep set of products on top of staking. All they offer is validator staking. Very few of them offer and very few of them actually yield redirection strategies on top of staking rewards.
Crypto Texan: Okay. So you're saying the modularity of the Stader protocol is the true differentiator between these and your competitors?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah. Absolutely.
Crypto Texan: Right. So I guess when Stader is looking at validator nodes, well, let's talk about that. Do you select validator nodes that are already validating the blocks in these ecosystems? Let's use Terra as an example. Because there's plenty of validators out there already, and I'm not that familiar with the Terra ecosystem and how the staking works, but you nominate certain validators within that ecosystem? Well, I guess how does Stader Labs decide which validators to use when selecting for the staking process?
Amit Gajjala: So as I mentioned, we have built a product called Know Your Validator on Terra that continuously monitors the performance of the validators. And we use a monthly average performance to pick the top validators or to curate the top validators. And those validators go into our pools. And every month we actually rebalance these validators.
Crypto Texan: So could a user running their own validator node, is there any way to implement their own validator into the Stader protocol if they wanted to? Or is that not how this works?
Amit Gajjala: It's usually not how this works. As long as the user's validate node is performing up to the mark, we would obviously select his validator in the bucket.
Crypto Texan: Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for clarifying that. That was helpful. So which blockchains in your opinion have the easiest or simplest lowest barrier for users to stake their assets? And I guess what are some of the difficulties that some retail users can encounter when trying to stake on their own?
Amit Gajjala: So the main difficulties that I see to today are one, it's hard to find the right set of validators that are really good performing because it needs a significant amount of effort from the user to understand the metrics and also evaluate the metrics. That's one. Second one is the actual number of the things that they have to do after they stake their assets like claiming their rewards, restaking their rewards to earn compounding returns is also complex. Then the third one is now among the several set of opportunities like staking, simplified staking et cetera. How are they going to make a decision? And with the liquid staking tokens, what kind of yield farming opportunities do they actually choose and implement for themselves? So all these are difficulties that these users of crypto face today, and we actually plan to simplify and make all of these effortless using our solutions.
Crypto Texan: Yeah. What kind of returns should retail users anticipate to receive on various blockchains? How do those fluctuate and if one blockchain is yielding 3% to 4% staking rewards, and another one is yielding 15% to 20% staking rewards, how would a user decide which one is best for them? Because I think historically you would say that 3% to 4% staking yields versus a 15% to 20% staking yield, the 3% to 4% has less risk. And I guess just what would your advice be for users when they're trying to determine which protocols to stake on?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. I think staking is not an independent decision. The primary decision a user should make is which crypto tokens to actually hold. And then the secondary decision is actually where do they stake? Yeah. Whether they stake or do some other things yield farming, et cetera. Right. Those are the two sets of decisions that the user has to make. So I don't think it's the right thing to compare let's say Solana yielding 7% versus Terra yielding 10%. Because the first decision that the user needs to make is what tokens whether Solana or Terra that they need to hold. Does that answer your question?
Crypto Texan: Oh yes. Yes. It does answer my question. Absolutely. On that what would you say to critics of proof-of-stake who say that proof of stake is more of an equity position in the blockchain and can result in a cotillion effect in which those closest to the money are the first to get it. How would you respond to that criticism from a proof-of-stake standpoint?
Amit Gajjala: So I think it's a valid concern because it generates this vicious cycle of giving more and more rewards to people who already hold higher amount of POS tokens. So it is a valid concern, but I think it's not something that can't be solved. Because the way I see it is proof-of-stake is so young. It's just probably it has come to a reasonably good quality just in the last one to two years, I think it will undergo its own set of modifications and improvements before it is perfect.
Crypto Texan: Right. And I would also say that when you're comparing it to proof-of-work, proof-of-work is also very capital intensive. And I think there are further even more technical limitations for people from a proof-of-work standpoint as well. Neither is perfect, but in my opinion I feel like proof-of-work is great and it has its benefits in its own right and so is proof-of-stake. So which one will win out over time. It just depends. Obviously proof-of-stake is more energy efficient, which I don't know, is good and is a benefit to the ecosystem, and definitely from a PR standpoint on crypto as a whole, that stands to be a benefit as well. So yeah, I agree with what you said there. Another question we have here is Amit why the decision to start with the Terra blockchain over the other blockchains from a POS standpoint?
Amit Gajjala: I think we wanted to start across multiple blockchains at the same time. But obviously because we were very young back then and had very scanty amount of capital we had to prioritize. And while prioritizing we saw Terra ecosystem as one of the most interesting ecosystem system with high complexity of staking rewards coming in several different currencies as well as air drops in several different protocol tokens. And we felt that that was a problem worth solving for users. Hence we selected Terra as one of the first ecosystems to build on, and beyond that there are several other interesting dynamics that are going on with Terra because their vision is also to bring millions of users to crypto. And that is how they have built this savings protocol Anchor and then synthetic assets protocol and several other interesting protocols are also in the works. So these are the main things that really attracted us towards building on Terra first.
Crypto Texan: And Amit, as you look further down the Stader Labs roadmap, what are some of the key things on the road-map that gets you most excited about the future of Stader Labs?
Amit Gajjala: Oh, sure. Lots of things excite me about what we are building. So essentially what we are doing is we are expanding across several blockchains. As I mentioned earlier, we'll be launching our first product which is liquid staking solution across four blockchains, including Phantom, Hedera as well as Solana in a few weeks. And we also want to create several value adding solutions to the simplified staking solutions, as well as yield farming or degen vaults type of strategies on top of liquid staking solutions. What that means is we automate a lot of the yield farming like borrowing and then repeated borrowing to leveraged staking and also repeated borrowing and automating this borrowing as well as looping on top of these liquid staking solutions. So these are all the products that we have in the pipeline and that keeps us going and keeps us excited.
Crypto Texan: Absolutely. And I know we talked about the tokenomics of the SD token a little bit earlier, but I wanted to circle back on that because this is a token that will have quite a bit of utility. And I know you mentioned those before and one of those being the slashing insurance will be provided by the validators via the Stader tokens staked. Can you go into a little bit more detail about how the Stader tokens that are staked in the protocol are utilized for the slashing insurance and why that's important?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah. So the proof-of-stake matures and more and more validators come into the ecosystem, I think blockchains are going to get a lot more stricter with slashing. And when slashing becomes important, obviously the validators need to... We need to incentivize validators to perform well. And at the same time penalize barriers who are not performing well. So when they stake SD tokens, these SD tokens will be one of the key component that provide slashing insurance beyond any other third party slashing insurance we might take for the platform.
Crypto Texan: Okay. And you also mentioned that the SD token stakers, they also receive a portion of revenues that's generated by the protocol. I'm curious what percentage of the revenues are distributed to the SD token holders? And is that in the form of additional SD tokens or is that in the form of the rewards generated by I guess the blockchain stakers? I'm sorry, I'm trying to differentiate between Stader protocol stakers and then the blockchain stakers as well. So I guess really my question is what portion of revenues are anticipated by the SD token holders and what are those denominated in?
Amit Gajjala: It is actually paid in additional SD tokens.
Crypto Texan: Okay. Great. So you and I talked a little bit earlier before you hopped on and you're in India right now. So I think there is a pretty strong majority of the index coop and listeners of this podcast who are more in the European and the Americas, in the Western side. So just curious to get your opinions on what is the general sentiment of crypto and DeFi in India right now just from your perception?
Amit Gajjala: So I think there is a lot of positivity around crypto. Hundreds of entrepreneurs are beginning to look at the space and there are several protocols that are emerging out of India. So there is a huge movement towards building in crypto and a lot of amazing web 2.0 talent is actually entering the space. I think government has also taken several steps in the positive direction in terms of regulating crypto, as well as legitimizing crypto by adding taxation to crypto earnings and gains. So I think government is also warming up towards crypto. I think India will be in a few years from now we are probably going to be the crypto capital of the world.
Crypto Texan: Really, and that's so interesting because I feel for a long time, maybe two, three years ago, India was very anti-crypto. What changed in the government stance or just the general sentiment in your opinion?
Amit Gajjala: I think the government has realized the potential of the technology to massively transform seven industries and the amount of talent that is already building in this has also probably come as a big realization to the government.
Crypto Texan: Yeah. You just see maybe that governments they enter their own FOMO in a sense from a crypto stand point. And that's just hold the whole general macroeconomic thesis is that if one government creates laws that are too restrictive on crypto, that provides an opportunity for another government to maybe relax its laws a little bit and bring in that talent and bring in that potential revenue and tax revenue for this new space. So yeah, I saw that with India, but wanted to get your take as well. I don't know. Before we get into some other just general questions, is there else that you wanted to address about Stader Labs that maybe I haven't touched on quite yet?
Amit Gajjala: I think one of the important things is the team. We have amazing talent across that have onboarded from web 2.0. These are all the guys from all over of the world. I think I am proud of the team that we have built so far. Most of them are from the top universities, Ivy league equals in India and the US. So big thanks to the team as well as proud of them, proud of what we have achieved so far and excited about what we can build.
Crypto Texan: Yeah. So I ask this to everyone that comes on this show, but what other projects and protocols are out there right now that you think are doing something very interesting or something that you feel our listeners should be keeping their eye on?
Amit Gajjala: Sorry, there was a break. You were saying what other key protocols-
Crypto Texan: I was just saying what are some other projects in the crypto space that you feel people should be paying attention to? That you think are very interesting and are doing some new innovative things?
Amit Gajjala: Got you. I definitely think a lot of protocols are working at the conversions of CeFi and DeFi. Enabling both sides of the world. So that realm is quite interesting, especially some protocols building at the intersection of connecting real world users to crypto, giving them access to yield farming DeFi opportunities in a very user friendly way. That is going to be a big trend over the next five to 10 years. And beyond that I also really like some of the protocols that are building across the blockchains in the layer zero and bridges as well as layer zero. So these are the two areas that I'm really excited about.
Crypto Texan: Really. Specifically what are some of those layer zero protocols that you're mentioning?
Amit Gajjala: So there there's a protocol that is being built out of India which is trying to build a bridge across Near and almost all the other blockchains in a decentralized way. So that's super exciting for me. Beyond that, obviously I'm excited about THORchain and the way they natively enable swaps across the POS assets and across the different types of assets. In the second domain there are several protocols and projects in India like the likes of Flint, et cetera, which are enabling real world users to get access to several DeFi and yield farming opportunities.
Crypto Texan: Where can people go to find out more about you and Stader Labs?
Amit Gajjala: Yeah, sure. So basically I think I am good. We have covered most of the important areas. I just wanted to say thank you to all the audience who have tuned in today and listened to me and thanks a lot to you for hosting me here. In order to find more information about Stader Labs, you can go to our Twitter or join our Discord or Telegram, where we have about 60,000 members, strong community who are always talking about Stader and what's next in the product roadmap.
Crypto Texan: Great. Yeah. Amit, thanks for being on the show with us today. For those of you listening live in the Discord, thank you for listening live. This is being recorded and we'll be able to get this out in about a week. Amit, thanks again for being on the show today. Have a great weekend.
Amit Gajjala: Thank you very much. Thanks again for having me here.
Crypto Texan: All right. Bye everyone.
Amit Gajjala: All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Host: @Crypto_Texan
Audio Engineer/Mixing: @LloveraFrank
Marketing Images: @crypto_diller_
Transcript: @0xMitzy / @Crypto_Texan
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